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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 10:04 pm |
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General Off-Topic "Discussions"
for the continuation of discussions when a topic has been closed.
but also includes other stuff
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Spunkymonkey
Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 09:54 pm |
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They probably included 1(d) so that people (including stroppy punters) couldn't "interpret" things in an unintended way.
Consider a system where the light is supposed to illuminate for 2 seconds, then go out briefly, then stay off if the system is ok, or relight and stay on if a fault's detected.
Now, if the light comes on and stays on (without going out in between) then it's not following a correct sequence - it's doing something that neither a healthy or faulty system should cause it to. You can't say it's "indicating an ABS fault" because what it's indicating is meaningless - it's not giving a correct indication that the ABS is good or bad. So the RFR would be 1(c) - "does not follow the correct sequence".
If, however, it comes on, then goes out, then comes on again it is following a correct sequence - the sequence that indicates a fault. The sequence is correct so RFR 1(c) can't apply. But it's still a fail because it's (correctly) indicating an ABS fault.
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 09:51 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote: Wesley wrote: Auto Engineer wrote: Stealth wrote: Auto Engineer wrote:
The first part above is from VOSA, the final paragraph is my understanding of what I think it means. Any further improvements to the above welcome.
Auto Engineer
There you go - 'Interpreting' again..........
Somebody has to think outside the box, otherwise everyone would just be cattle, then when one falls off the edge, the rest on autopilot just follow
Auto Engineer
RFR 1d, Indicates a fault, With the Lamp staying On.
How does this relate to "judiths" vehicle
Wes.
It does'nt and it never did, the problem originated because the testers manual said at method of inspection 1b the lamp illuminated and Judith said it was very dim. No matter how dim if it lit even very slightly I know it would pass at that point, I also know it met the criteria at 1c, the lamp follows the correct sequence of operation, the reason for rejection says; the lamp does not follow the correct sequence of operation.
So for me the confusion was, up to point 1c the ABS lamp has passed the test, but then I asked what did reason for rejection 1d refer to?
everyone then went on the war path saying its a pass and advise, all I ever wanted was to understand why reason for rejection 1d was there?
Now we all know an ABS lamp can illuminate when driven on the road because of a faulty ABS sensor, but my experience has never experinced a fault in the testing bay where that reason for rejection 1d has ever been required?
So I thought Judiths complaint was a good example "Dim lamp" to try and discuss the issue with professional mot testers to share their experince and views, not have a war of the worlds of disagreement and contention between us all?
Auto Engineer
Thank You for your reply,
There is a "General Off Topic" Heading, where We can have further discussions on items after any post has concluded.
Would it not have been better and more proffesional to use this option rather than introduce the "scenario" into an innocent enquiry by "judith"?
The only confusion I could see was yours, Its still "pass and advise"
some food for thought?
Wes.
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 09:39 pm |
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This is all starting to look "Very Dim"
But hay, what is the meaning of Dim and Very?????????????????????????????
rfr
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 07:20 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote: Stealth wrote: Auto Engineer wrote:
The first part above is from VOSA, the final paragraph is my understanding of what I think it means. Any further improvements to the above welcome.
Auto Engineer
There you go - 'Interpreting' again..........
Somebody has to think outside the box, otherwise everyone would just be cattle, then when one falls off the edge, the rest on autopilot just follow
Auto Engineer
RFR 1d, Indicates a fault, With the Lamp staying On.
How does this relate to "judiths" vehicle
Wes.
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Stealth
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 07:19 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote: Somebody has to think outside the box, otherwise everyone would just be cattle, then when one falls off the edge, the rest on autopilot just follow
Auto Engineer
Therein lies the issue Auto Engineer...
Members of the public come on this forum to seek advice about MOT matters.
In most cases a simple pass, fail, advise, reply will answer the question,
It's when forum members start to 'think outside the box,' that confusion arises
Ultimately, I'm sure some members of the public have gone away feeling that..
a. They havent got a clear answer to their question.
b. They still dont know if their car should pass/fail.
c. It doesn't instill the general public with confidence in the MOT scheme, and the competence of testers in general, when there is dissent and disagreement on pass/fail criteria amongst the supposedly qualified and experienced members of this forum.
As I've implied in prevous posts, it's this 'thinking outside the box' that's lead to testers making the wrong decision - in a number of cases this has lead to disciplinary action from VOSA directly as a result of NOT reading the manual thoroughly & making the wrong pass/fail decisions.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a healthy, logical debate about areas of disagreement - but lets not make ourselves, as members, and indeed the forum as a whole, look silly in the eyes of the general public !!!
Regards
Stealth
Last edited on Wed Apr 15th, 2009 07:26 pm by Stealth
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Stealth
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 06:01 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote:
The first part above is from VOSA, the final paragraph is my understanding of what I think it means. Any further improvements to the above welcome.
Auto Engineer
There you go - 'Interpreting' again..........Last edited on Wed Apr 15th, 2009 06:01 pm by Stealth
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Auto Engineer
Contributor
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 05:44 pm |
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VOSA Technical Services said;
Message Number 03865****
Date sent 15/04/2009 Time 09;10
Thank you for your message. RfR 1d for ABS systems states that the vehicle should fail if the warning lamp indicates an ABS fault. If the lamp indicates a fault with the ABS system, then the vehicle should be failed even if the ABS system is operating normally. Regards Stephen.
I think this is what should be the correct understanding of the above;
If the vehicle is fitted with an antilock braking system, check that;
(a) a warning lamp is fitted
(b) the lamp illuminates
(c) the lamp follows the correct sequence of operation
(d) does not indicate a fault
(Rfr 1d) Indicates a fault
This reason for rejection I understand to mean that it does indicate a fault with the operation of the ABS electrical system, which is advised to the person looking at it that a fault is present within the ABS electrical system., shown by the operation of the ABS lamp staying on!
The first part above is from VOSA, the final paragraph is my understanding of what I think it means. Any further improvements to the above welcome.
Auto Engineer
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big..E.
Trade Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 12:04 am |
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Incognental again?....lol....
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 11:56 pm |
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True Bro,
Me Thinks "Trebogus" Is Going Continental.
Laters.
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big..E.
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 11:36 pm |
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| I think were better off without the "W"...Do we have an anchor???....lol.....
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 10:58 pm |
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RFR wrote: Hi Auto Engineer,
many thanks for reminding me of my missing "w", I can take some warmth however, from the fact that "I can" without pulling the manual apart, tell if the ABS lamp is following the correct sequence and for that I do not need to be rescued.
As for becoming the coxswain, I feel this could be a bad idea, for the person in need may perish, before you have pulled the operations manual apart and then phoned tomorrow for advise on how to operate the boat.
rfr
The coxsWain
ps. Thanks for finding my "W", the crew will be grateful too you
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 10:57 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote: I think "ABS lamp indicates a fault" means that it "Thats the ABS lamp" does not follow the correct operating procedure, so it illuminates but then, "STAYS ON"!
Indicating an ABS fault. As noboddy could answer the question posted?
VOSA will give definitive answer from technical services if they know what the correct answer is later?
Auto Engineer
The "Original Question" was posted by some poor young lady called "judith"
Her Vehicle followed "the correct procedure"
The Original Question, Was Indeed answered Correctly.
So You managed to twist it around again!
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RFR
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 10:29 pm |
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Hi Auto Engineer,
many thanks for reminding me of my missing "w", I can take some warmth however, from the fact that "I can" without pulling the manual apart, tell if the ABS lamp is following the correct sequence and for that I do not need to be rescued.
As for becoming the coxswain, I feel this could be a bad idea, for the person in need may perish, before you have pulled the operations manual apart and then phoned tomorrow for advise on how to operate the boat.
rfr
The coxsWain
ps. Thanks for finding my "W", the crew will be grateful too you
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Spike
Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 10:20 pm |
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If the vehicle is fitted with an anti-lock braking system, check that
a. a warning lamp is fitted
b. the lamp illuminates
c. the lamp follows the correct sequence of operation
d. does not indicate a fault.
a, b & c could all PASS, but during the MOT test the lamp could illuminate to indicate a fault.
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Wesley
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 10:20 pm |
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| Looking Forward to the reply from VOSA.
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big..E.
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 09:44 pm |
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| Familiar Really.......
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RFR
Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 09:22 pm |
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Hi All,
Once I have repaired the ABS lamp on the lifeboat, I can feel a lifeboat launch coming on.
It all sounds too familiar.
rfr
The coxsain
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nicknak
Trade Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 09:17 pm |
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Last edited on Tue Apr 14th, 2009 09:18 pm by nicknak
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Stealth
Super Moderator
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2009 08:04 pm |
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Auto Engineer wrote:
you really have gone all round the houses on this one to justify your decison?
I know what VSI points out on each vehicle when printed, these are a guide to the vehicle being tested, I also know that other reliable data can be used, I also know what it says in the manual as I have read it, but please prove me wrong if you can, but nowhere on this forum did I previous try to interpret the manual regarding ABS lamp operation, what I did was ask for you testers to give your professional views, which you have just said in your own words that an mot tester should not try to interpret the manual because that is where testers get it wrong?
Love to hear what VOSA would make of that conversation, what a waist of money producing the manual?
With regards your Audi example and the additional brake lamp defect, which may be apart of the ABS system is not a testable item, and as long as the ABS lamp works as it should then it has passed, the other lamp would be a pass and advise would it not?
I have emailed VOSA technical team with regard reason for rejection 1d to see what they advise, my view was that if the ABS lamp complied with method of inspections 1a,b and c, then what did 1d refer to as indicating a fault?
I just thought Judith's example of a very dim warning lamp may have fitted the description of reason for rejection 1d?
But may be its me or may be some testers on here are hard hearted and see things with tunnel vision, taking their own view on things and not having the ability to reason and understand other peoples view points without getting heated up?
We shall see what VOSA advise then I wil let you know the outcome.
Auto Engineer
I dont need to go round the houses to justify anything - just trying to give you an example where there could be other information over & above the normal ABS light which COULD INDICATE a fault.
With regards to Judith's case.......
THE ABS LAMP FOLLOWS THE CORRECT SEQUENCE, BUT THE BULB IS DIM - IF HER CAR HAD A FAULT THE ABS LAMP WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE CORRECT SEQUENCE.
Therefore - her car passes.
Please let the forum know what VOSA advise - because I really can't be bothered to type any more on this subject.
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