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 Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 10:13 pm
   
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I thought the manual said something long the lines of;

Check the brake pipes for being reduced in diameter by 0.25mm, i.e. up to a 1/3 caused by corrosion before a fail is issued?

I would love to hear how any NT can decide that 0.25mm of a brake pipe diameter is missing:shock:

Given that the NT is not just looking at the diameter, but a definate point of the pipe wall area of 1mm thick to say that 0.25mm of it is missing:shock:

I have seen many brake pipes on vehicles which have been to other Test Stations and failed where I have lightly scraped the surface corrosion off to assess them, then passed them.

I have never had a complaint to date where a vehicle I have passed has had the brake pipes fails in service afterwards, and nobody has ever complained, so I must be doing something right:P

:):)

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 Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 09:35 pm
   
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Aylesbury Jock
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kit1958 wrote:
What happened to the rusty brake pipes of the 1st post??:?
BTW i do not agree with the idea that if they do not burst on rbt the must be ok to p&a :X


You are absolutely correct kit. Although there are some testers who have decided to do away with VOSA's manual and develop their own test, and I have had to make this comment to him before,(to no effect obviously, as he is still touting his own brand of brake pipe testing) the manual requires testers to do a visual inspection, and make the pass/fail decision on the amount of pitting they can see, regardless of the outcome of the rbt test. I checked again today, and the instructions are still there.:dude:

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 Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 12:29 pm
   
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Tony Gingell wrote:

What I am saying in short is that everyone makes their own decisions based on their own personal desires and circumstances, and if you want to be a busy fool writing every manerous deteriorated/worn compoent down on a vehicle that has met the minimum standard at the time you inspect it, which literally is at the time you inspect it and not months later when somebody else inspects it, then that becomes your personal choice of decisions?


 

PTBP,

A fair point(s) you have made. As for me, I'd rather be a busy fool, than an un-busy fool that does not cover his a**e.

Out of interest, if a car comes in for service at your place of work, do you present the customer with a list of adivse notes, printed on the invoice, stating any possible defects on his/her vehicle?


In a short answer Tony, yes.

As best as can be done without upsetting everyone,and the truth is that when you are applying standards to people who don't want them, then you will upset them anyway, so over the years I have found that I seem to have weeded out many people who don't want to adhere to any national agreed standards, whether VOSA's or anything recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, so in my own mind I am glad to be rid of these customers because they were a mightmare to deal with, constantly worry about the condition of their vehicles and the decisions being made over the years. Like I said previously why should I worry about the condition of their vehicles and VOSA walking through the door to inspect them, if the customers don't care anyway?

Many conversations have been had with VOSA and other members of the MOT Trade, who always ask the same questions. VOSA once asked the trade do you really want peoples vehicles prohibited at your garages so they can't drive off in them if say the brakes have failed?

Do you really want the responsibility of all the dangerous customers vehicles in your possession and made your responsibility?

Nnbody gave VOSA a definitive answer, where they had clearly not thought it through first?

If at the end of an mot test the brakes are dangeous and advised on the certificate issued, why should you be bothered if the presenter drives off in it?

If they have an accident they had it you didn't, you can't stop them anymore than you can stop countries having wars and killing people directly can you?

VOSA have said in the past that it is a police matter if people drive on the road with dangeous vehicles and not the responsibility of the MOT scheme.

I don't see a lot of this type of evidence you NT's are saying is out there, and yes I do work on vehicles full time, so either I am doing something all you are not, or NT's are being over zealous in their decision making and based on personal opinion rather than fact of evidence the NT's are saying things are dangerous when they might not be?

I must point out an argument that went on for quite a time on this forum a few years ago regarding brake disc condition, the long term MOT testers on this forum now known as "Trade Members" constantly argued that corroded brake discs were dangerous and should fail mot tests, many examples of worn brake discs were presented on this forum, where all NT's agreed they should fail, and I did say no they should not based on the condition that was being seen at that time, nobody liked what I said, but when VOSA eventually caught up and saw how many brake discs were being failed on MOT's based on opinions of mot professionals, then VOSA had to act and change the criteria, thus saying they had to be serious weakend before a fail is allowed, this being to stop professional mot testers from failing brake discs, I mean why would a professional mot tester fail a worn brake disc if the NT had Outstanding Technical knowledge with ongoing training and develpoment?

Surely the NT would understand when it is justifed to fail such components?

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 Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 11:57 am
   
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What I am saying in short is that everyone makes their own decisions based on their own personal desires and circumstances, and if you want to be a busy fool writing every manerous deteriorated/worn compoent down on a vehicle that has met the minimum standard at the time you inspect it, which literally is at the time you inspect it and not months later when somebody else inspects it, then that becomes your personal choice of decisions?


 

PTBP,

A fair point(s) you have made. As for me, I'd rather be a busy fool, than an un-busy fool that does not cover his a**e.

Out of interest, if a car comes in for service at your place of work, do you present the customer with a list of adivse notes, printed on the invoice, stating any possible defects on his/her vehicle?

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 Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2012 11:12 am
   
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As I pointed out in one of my previous threads, the evidence to prove that road safety is affected is limited when vehicles are maintained correctly.

Everyone has a responsibility in the real world in their dealing with each other, how each person works with or against their naighbour is done to their own attitudes.

We have standards built up over many years, we call them laws, however there is also codes of practice which professionals follow in their dealings with customers.

Since 1982 in the UK we have had a standard set by law which covers service and repair of motor vehicles, and the supply of goods and service act 1982, which again covers the dealings a garage has with their customers when repairs and servicing are carried out.

What I have just pointed out above is the facts that clearly state when a service or repair is carried out above, then the service or repair is carried out by a competent mechanic who has the ability through training, knowledge and experience to fully understand what the vehicle manufacturer has done, and can apply those standards during service and repairs.

During the mot test the Statutory Provisions & Regulations section 45 1988 come into operation to assess whether a vehicle meets a minimum standard set by VOSA, a body of people entrusted to provide a minimum standard and report back to DfT who gave the responsibility to write and produce these minimum standards.

If then in your dealings with your customers when servicing their vehicles you correctly advise them of what you see, and they choose not to have any repairs carried out, then provided you as a part of your service and repairs advised them of what you saw, then it is the owners responsibility and not yours.

At this point no liability rests with the service provider.

When an mot test is carried out to the required minimum standards, there should be nothing to say based on the above should there?

Now in the real world people will have you believe that they have not got a lot of money to spend, so they grind you down to lower and lower standards to suit them because you want their business but they don't want to pay for it?

So my experience has shown that people smoke, maybe 40 cigs a day, the budget has increased cigs by £0.37 per packet at 6:00PM last night, but that won't stop people smoking, yet they will find the additional money because it is a desire they choose to want and need more than maintenance on their vehicles.

Then there is alcohol, which at this time I am lead to believe has stayed at the same price, but again is a desire which people will pay for more than the car servicing and repairs?


What I am saying in short is that everyone makes their own decisions based on their own personal desires and circumstances, and if you want to be a busy fool writing every manerous deteriorated/worn compoent down on a vehicle that has met the minimum standard at the time you inspect it, which literally is at the time you inspect it and not months later when somebody else inspects it, then that becomes your personal choice of decisions?

VOSA's computerisation system is not setup to produce the advisories that you produce on a daily basis, which is why VOSA advise that they are the opinion of the NT and not set by VOSA, however if you understand what VOSA are saying as I pointed out above, re-written here for clarity;

The NT has evidence of outstanding technical knowledge with ongoing training and development, then also has I pointed out previosly the NT should be in a very good position to make decisions based on a solid foundation of training, which means that you should not have to be producing loads of advisories, but mearly informing the vehicle owner/presenter that although the vehicle met the minimum standards of road worthiness at the time of examination, it appears that the vehicle does not comply with current Road Traffic Regulations, and is below the vehicle manufacturer recommendations, thereofore if continued use on the public roads are to be considered, the owner should have the vehicle serviced to the manufacturer recommendations.

Edited the thread to say;

If in the opinion of the NT an area/item(s)is considered dangeous, then VOSA put a facility on Computerisation for that so that the presenter is immediately aware of it.

:):)

 

 

Edited by Kev G After complaints from a Forum User about a Potentially Sexist remark.

 

Please be carefull when Posting.

Last edited on Fri Mar 23rd, 2012 07:07 pm by KevG

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 09:55 pm
   
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kit1958
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So not failing or advising that you have seen corroded brake pipes that didn't burst today but may do tommorow improves road safety for everyone how??

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 08:33 pm
   
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The pass and advise system which NT's put on the pass or fail certificate is actually nothing to do with VOSA, where they do actually say on the certificate that the items listed are the personal opinion of the tester and not any standards set by VOSA.

VOSA however have a standard they look for from all NT's, which is;

Outstanding technical knowledge with ongoing training and development.

So based on what VOSA actually think above then, there should be very little an NT really needs to tell the owner/presenter of the vehicle unless its say tyres worn close to 1.6mm, or brake pads worn close to 1.5mm,or some corrosion related issue that is slightly more than slight but not yet reached the point of test failure at the time of examination:D, or slight play in a ball joint, but would you really need to tell them that if the fail criteria is more than 1mm and less than really then there is nothing there is there in reality?

So how far should it go to advise?

I did'nt mention brake pipes above because I have already mentioned them in a previous thread.:)

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 08:33 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:
I wished the VTS device software program was a little better at showing statistics and allow us to break down the performance reports so we could see better information from the results?

You must fail a lot of brake pipes lol:D, I can't say I can remember all vehicles over the last five years testing full time, but from memory if I tried to remember vehicles I know I failed, I can remember a Mondeo where the brake pedal went to the floor checking the servo, I remember a Fiat with a Union leaking, a Ford Focus where the brake pipes burst at the rear loading sensing valve, and one vehicle I forget the make with a caliper bleed nipple loose, thus leaking, but ask for failing brake pipes for excessively corroded, and I am being as honest as I can be in my reply here, I can't remember the last vehicle I failed for this reason, and although I admit I will have failed vehicles for this reason over the last five years, I can't recall from memory more that 3 to 5 at the most!

So in reality for me with modern vehicles rusty brake pipes are not that big an issue :)


I normally fail at least a couple a week on rotten brake pipes , seems very common at the moment

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 08:05 pm
   
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Tony Gingell
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PTBP,
Completly paperless has been mooted by VOSA for sometime and I'm sure that as they hold "pass and advise" in such high regard, that advises would be recorded on any future system.
So long as the customer, or future car owner can view the paperwork (for want of a better word) online, then I can see no problem with it. Personally, I feel that any potential car owner should be able to see the advises as well, but I guess that would be a step tooo far.

Out of interest, I still keep my inspection sheets for 18 months.

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 07:28 pm
   
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I wished the VTS device software program was a little better at showing statistics and allow us to break down the performance reports so we could see better information from the results?

You must fail a lot of brake pipes lol:D, I can't say I can remember all vehicles over the last five years testing full time, but from memory if I tried to remember vehicles I know I failed, I can remember a Mondeo where the brake pedal went to the floor checking the servo, I remember a Fiat with a Union leaking, a Ford Focus where the brake pipes burst at the rear loading sensing valve, and one vehicle I forget the make with a caliper bleed nipple loose, thus leaking, but ask for failing brake pipes for excessively corroded, and I am being as honest as I can be in my reply here, I can't remember the last vehicle I failed for this reason, and although I admit I will have failed vehicles for this reason over the last five years, I can't recall from memory more that 3 to 5 at the most!

So in reality for me with modern vehicles rusty brake pipes are not that big an issue :)

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 06:56 pm
   
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What happened to the rusty brake pipes of the 1st post??:?
BTW i do not agree with the idea that if they do not burst on rbt the must be ok to p&a :X

Last edited on Wed Mar 21st, 2012 06:58 pm by kit1958

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 06:24 pm
   
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VOSA have clearly pointed out in the past in the Testing Guide about MOT Stations in rural areas that if insufficient tests are carried out that testing could have to stop, so if you have a Test Station in the outbacks somewhere, then you must have done your homework before setting up and investing in it, otherwise some might consider the AE a fool in those circumstances no:)

However we have moved on in BT Technology:D, if you watch the TV about BT on their current advertisments the guy with the girl knows all too well about a girls hot spots with wireless technology from BT LOL:D

VOSA have always maintained that communication time during data transfer would be kept to a minimum :D,you obviously not keeping up with the changes LOL:P:D

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 Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2012 12:45 am
   
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Stealth wrote:


I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed

:):)


Not gospel David - & not cast in stone.

The VOSA/ATOS MOT computerisation contract expires in 2015

Vosa is exploring the feasability of making the MOT test internet based.

YES, the VTS would need to provide some means of internet access, but that would be up to each site to supply the kit - in the words of a presenter at a recent seminar - the site could use any old computer, laptop or even smart phone for access to a website with a locked down IP address.

Further development would allow on-line training packages to be dropped to testers on an annual basis to remove the need for testers to attend refresher courses.

Following on from this, further develpment would allow managers to perform certain functions from any internet access point - such as ordering test slots, reports etc.

One sticking point is that some VTS's in rural area's have limted intenet access.

BTW David - the same presenter regularly attends the VTS council meetings - he said he couldn't recall meeting you.


Obviouiosly, "David"? "Who"??:? Isn`t aware of such  exploratory work by firms such as "BT";) running "experimenal tests" in "rural areas"!??:?

"4G"??:? wtf??:?:P

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 11:52 pm
   
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Stealth wrote:
Proud to be professional wrote:
I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed


I am just so glad to see that your are so well informed and correct as usually LOL:D, given that I did attend the Seminar at Wilmslow Road, Manchester, M14 6AF on the 7th March 2012:D, where the seminar leaflet given out consisted of

In which case you are mis-quoting again - there were no definitive proposals to remove VTS devices in 2015 - only outline idea's of VOSA's plans for future development of capturing MOT results.
:)


Slightly different at Council Meetings lol:D

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 11:02 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:
I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed


I am just so glad to see that your are so well informed and correct as usually LOL:D, given that I did attend the Seminar at Wilmslow Road, Manchester, M14 6AF on the 7th March 2012:D, where the seminar leaflet given out consisted of

In which case you are mis-quoting again - there were no definitive proposals to remove VTS devices in 2015 - only outline idea's of VOSA's plans for future development of capturing MOT results.
:)

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 11:01 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote: Stealth wrote:
Proud to be professional wrote:
I suppose that would depend on which Council Meeting the presenter attends;)

Yours David - Leeds - which includes Manchester - and I'm surprised that as a Council member you don't appear to have attended this year's round of seminars.

;)


I am just so glad to see that your are so well informed and correct as usually LOL:D, given that I did attend the Seminar at Wilmslow Road, Manchester, M14 6AF on the 7th March 2012:D, where the seminar leaflet given out consisted of;

Welcome from Alan Wilson page 2, VTS Council Members page 3, Testing changes 2012 page 4, Headlamp aim trial page 5,centre pages what goes into a mot test?

and last but not least customer service centre:D

So I am up to date but a bit unsure about the reliability of your source of information LOL:D

As ever Stealth;)keep up the good work:)

What`s happened to "Cockney Tony"??;)

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 10:41 pm
   
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Stealth wrote:
Proud to be professional wrote:
I suppose that would depend on which Council Meeting the presenter attends;)

Yours David - Leeds - which includes Manchester - and I'm surprised that as a Council member you don't appear to have attended this year's round of seminars.

;)


I am just so glad to see that your are so well informed and correct as usually LOL:D, given that I did attend the Seminar at Wilmslow Road, Manchester, M14 6AF on the 7th March 2012:D, where the seminar leaflet given out consisted of;

Welcome from Alan Wilson page 2, VTS Council Members page 3, Testing changes 2012 page 4, Headlamp aim trial page 5,centre pages what goes into a mot test?

and last but not least customer service centre:D

So I am up to date but a bit unsure about the reliability of your source of information LOL:D

As ever Stealth;)keep up the good work:)

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 08:35 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:
I suppose that would depend on which Council Meeting the presenter attends;)

Yours David - Leeds - which includes Manchester - and I'm surprised that as a Council member you don't appear to have attended this year's round of seminars.

;)

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 08:35 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:
I suppose that would depend on which Council Meeting the presenter attends;)

Yours David - Leeds - which includes Manchester - and I'm surprised that as a Council member you don't appear to have attended this year's round of seminars.

;)

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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 07:19 pm
   
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I suppose that would depend on which Council Meeting the presenter attends;)

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