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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2012 12:06 am
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Wesley
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Mana: 
wchris wrote: Ok to answer two replies in one. 1.The tester is using an automated facility and he also sometimes has an assistant. 2.The second reply makes the point which I was trying to get over. If I get a fail then I can get the advisories removed on retest. If I get a pass then I can do nothing about the advisories which seems unfair. I take pride in the preparation of my cars prior to a test and I cannot remember the last time I had a failure (Really !!!!!). However, of late I can't remember the last time I did not have an irrelevant or wrong advisory. Maybe I should deliberately aim for a fail (Say one worn tyre) then sweep up any advisories along with the one deliberate fail item in the retest. Why should a conscientious regular customer have to jump through such contrived hoops to be able to present a car for sale with a clean MOT ? Probably the best advice I have received so far is to go else where.

Hi chris, my apologies if you feel that my replies have been so defensive? in my experiences of inspecting vehicles presented by traders, they have been very good and very bad! mostly the latter! there is an option available to testers, for "non component related items", which vosa recommend, they include oil leak, coolant leak, nails in tyres, child seats fitted,headlamp adjuster set to zero, setbelt latch covers missing, etc, etc. Maybye I should suggest you have a browse of the manual which other members have suggested? I cannot personally see how you can come to the conclusion of irrelevant or wrong advisories withouht reading this first? If you were a conscientuos regular presenter at our establishment, then we would have been advising you of changes to the manual for many many years, and you would not feel the need to jump through hoops, however sometimes even the conscientious presenter/tester, will miss an item?;)

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 11:24 pm
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Stealth
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drivewasher

Ageed and many only send car in for test when it's actually sold so nearly always a rush job


And there are many people who assume that just because their recent purchase has a lovely new MOT certificate it's completely free of ANY faults ;)

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 10:49 pm
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drivewasher
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kit1958 wrote:
Just for info many traders turn up with very little or no preparation on cars presented for test & just repair fail items

Ageed and many only send car in for test when it's actually sold so nearly always a rush job

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 10:19 pm
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drivewasher
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wchris wrote:
I take pride in the preparation of my cars prior to a test

I can't remember the last time I did not have an irrelevant or wrong advisory.


So much pride in the prep that it had oil or an oil leak on the engine

Can you give us examples of "irrelevant or wrong advisory"
I advice on items that aren't worn enough to fail on the test but will need attention sooner rather than later. Also Items that COULD come back to bite me on a reverse appeal ESPECIALLY on a car that thats likley to be sold on as I don't want to be the scape goat for an unsatisfied buyer to get his money back. In the main, corrosion.
As you seem to know all about the MoT operation. Isn't it a shame we can't refuse to test a vehicle genrally speaking

Last edited on Mon Apr 9th, 2012 10:21 pm by drivewasher

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 09:13 pm
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kit1958
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Just for info many traders turn up with very little or no preparation on cars presented for test & just repair fail items

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 08:30 pm
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wchris
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Ok to answer two replies in one. 1.The tester is using an automated facility and he also sometimes has an assistant. 2.The second reply makes the point which I was trying to get over. If I get a fail then I can get the advisories removed on retest. If I get a pass then I can do nothing about the advisories which seems unfair. I take pride in the preparation of my cars prior to a test and I cannot remember the last time I had a failure (Really !!!!!). However, of late I can't remember the last time I did not have an irrelevant or wrong advisory. Maybe I should deliberately aim for a fail (Say one worn tyre) then sweep up any advisories along with the one deliberate fail item in the retest. Why should a conscientious regular customer have to jump through such contrived hoops to be able to present a car for sale with a clean MOT ? Probably the best advice I have received so far is to go else where.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 04:37 pm
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drivewasher
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Mana: 
If a car fails a test and has advisories then they can be removed on the retest because all advisories have to be checked on a re test EG a tyre near the min req could be a fail if that car has done a few miles running round in the up to 10 days prior to retest.
So deal with them before a re test and advisory side will be blank ;)

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 03:28 pm
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kit1958
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There is no recomended time for a mot, it takes as long as it takes. If you see a test done in 20 mins or less it would suggest that it's getting a cursory look rather than a full check, as the only way that I know of doing a test as quickly as that is to miss bits out.
Are these tests being done on an automated facility or is an assistant being used (or not if you know what I mean)?
It is not permited to remove or repair a vehile under test (exept to adjust headlamps).
The more that I read the more I would be tempted to question the quality of the tests that you are paying for.:(

Last edited on Mon Apr 9th, 2012 03:29 pm by kit1958

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 02:26 pm
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wchris
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There have been a couple of references to my comment on the time for an MOT being 45 mins and I would like to clarify the situation. I have never seen this in writing but on many occasions when I have an MOT done the tester says that he has finished the test but he can't log off the test and give me my paperwork (Or let me have the car) until 45mins from the start of the test have elapsed. I assumed that the minimum time he was allowed to spend on a test was in that case 45 mins. This is not a personal attack on a tester or me trying to bring the testing profession into disrepute, it is my experience of submitting cars for MOT's. Is there a minimum time for a test in existence ? If there is such a minimum time and the Tester regularly undercuts it do you think that there is something wrong either with the time allocation or the tester ? And do you begin to see why I feel frustrated when after what amounts to a fairly cursory look round the car and a cup of coffee he comes up with an unwarranted advisory which I can do nothing about. If he has time to spare then may be he should ask me if I want to take the car away correct the item which he is going to advise and resubmit the car for test. If I have to pay for two tests so be it.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 01:47 pm
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Aylesbury Jock
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You know, I was very lazy in reading wchris's last post I read about your history and experiance and your general tone seemed a lot more reasonable than before. I actually didn't read past that, but decided to reply in kind ,with a reasonable manner. I thought Wes was a bit harsh, but that made me read the whole thing, and I have to say you have a very blinkered attitude. I will however continue to be reasonable, but with no paragraphs Wes, sorry. There is no alloted time span for an MOT test, and I wish I could do them in 25 or even 45 minutes. I must be slow in my old age. You are correct that there are good testers and bad testers, as well as good and bad traders,so we both understand the phrase 'tarred with the same brush', which is why I haven't had a rant about traders. The car does not have a 'record' which is going to follow it about from owner to owner. If there is an advisory on there you don't like, such as the oil leak in question, wipe it off and relax. I know it can't be unwritten on the certificate, but it is not important in the long run. Tell your potential customer it has been dealt with and move on. The unwarranted attack on some poor tester being professional and trying to help is regrettable, but we'll get over it. I think those are all the points I wanted to answer. Have a nice day.

Last edited on Mon Apr 9th, 2012 01:49 pm by Aylesbury Jock

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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2012 12:55 am
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Wesley
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wchris wrote: Ok Lets start again. Firstly I fully support the existence and enforcement of the MOT test scheme. I was horrified to hear of the proposal to reduce the frequency of testing to once every two years. I think that an annual test is essential and a case could be made to test more often for vehicles which cover larger than average  distances during a year. I have family and friends who use the roads and I would not want them in un-roadworthy cars or exposed to un-roadworthy cars driven by others. If you want an idea of my experience I am now 66 years old and have been in engineering all my life. Starting with an HND in mechanical engineering I have worked (Hands on) in aircraft and aircraft piston engine maintenance and repair, marine engineering and in the motor trade, maintenance, repair and sales. I believe I have a well rounded appreciation the requirements for keeping a car safe. When I submit a car for MOT I always accompany it and watch the test. I always appreciate another skilled pair of eyes on  a car which I am going subsequently sell and therefore take responsibility for. I would far rather correct any faults before sale than have comebacks which are bad for the customer and bad for me and my business. What I don't need are ill-informed and wrong comments indelibly attached to good cars record. I do not object to comments on potential roadworthy issues  although as the MOT test points out it is only a snap shot of the cars condition at the time of the test. Comments such as "brake pads getting to the end of their life" etc. could be useful to many owners. However, if an MOT tester is going to take it upon himself to comment on the general condition of the car where is it all going to end? Are we to regard the MOT as a pre sale check and valuation service ? Will the tester issue an advisory if he doesn't like the colour? No please stick to the items which are covered by the legislation of the test for which there are rules and guidelines. Surely a tester should use His "Allocated 45" mins in testing the safety of the car not for looking for other comments to make. I have seen many tests where the tester has spent 25 mins looking round the car and doing brake and emission tests and then filled in the rest of the 45 mins required time sitting in front of his computer screen and drinking coffee until he is allowed to log off and then he comes up with advisories as well ! There are bad car dealers and there are bad MOT testers and the rest of us must all be allowed to air our views and experiences so we can learn form each other without prejudice.


Wow!:shock:

I often wondered how long it takes other testers, to inspect and write down all of those defects when Inspecting old "pikey" Transits?:?

I didn`t realise that the "allocated" time was, 45 mins?:?

As I Understand It?, "The Inspection" takes as long as it takes?:? thats a national average of 48 mins.:P

"Your Quote", "Aircraft and Marine" Engineering?;) Surely that "oil leaK", However minimal?:) would have rendered the vehicle, plane, boat. "unsrervicable" for passengers?:D

your use of "grammar" and the use of sentences and paragraphs?:?

ps;- to All our other readers please read, "The" Small Print.;)

pps;- surely a "without predudice" Query would not seem to be so "Agressive" towards testers?:?

 

 

 

 


 

Last edited on Mon Apr 9th, 2012 01:12 am by Wesley

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 08:25 pm
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Aylesbury Jock
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With your background, you must realise that an oil leak, although not within the scope of the MOT, could easily be a roadworthy problem, and although the tester does not have the time to check in depth the extent of the leak, he should be motivated to inform you of it's existance. He does not know you ,how much experianceyou have, or if the car is being serviced at all. We have had people complaining before about advisories, and the answer is always going to be the same. As testers we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If that car was not properly checked regularly and that oil leak developed into a problem that left the engine seized because the oil was off down the road somewhere, and you had not been advised, you(maybe not you personally)would be looking for someone to pay and 90% of the time the tester is in the firing line. The next thing I usually hear is 'I understand what you are saying, but...' Well no buts, that is what we have to put up with, we try to be helpful, and still we're in the firing line. defensive? oh yes! I hope you understand, because that is the job. No apologies.

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 07:51 pm
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kit1958
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wchris wrote:
Ok Lets start again.......




Good points & well put sir.
Please remember that most testers over a certain vintage have had some sort of run in with traders at some time.
If you have concerns about frivolous comments on an advisory notice, the first thing that you should do is speak to the AE (station owner)& tester involved. At a LAST resort you could complain to VOSA. Or go to a different vts, the choice is yours.
Good luck with that ;)

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 07:27 pm
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markt
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Mana: 
a fair comment ;)
but all of us testers out there who do our job accordingly shall still carry out putting advisories on them to keep ourselves covered..its then the vehicle presenters responsibility to follow them up if the buyer/owner of the vehicle questions them.
as stated in other posts they are there to protect US and not the vehicle owner/seller,and additionaly help toward the vehicles lifespan...hopefully :D:D

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 06:10 pm
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wchris
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Ok Lets start again. Firstly I fully support the existence and enforcement of the MOT test scheme. I was horrified to hear of the proposal to reduce the frequency of testing to once every two years. I think that an annual test is essential and a case could be made to test more often for vehicles which cover larger than average  distances during a year. I have family and friends who use the roads and I would not want them in un-roadworthy cars or exposed to un-roadworthy cars driven by others. If you want an idea of my experience I am now 66 years old and have been in engineering all my life. Starting with an HND in mechanical engineering I have worked (Hands on) in aircraft and aircraft piston engine maintenance and repair, marine engineering and in the motor trade, maintenance, repair and sales. I believe I have a well rounded appreciation the requirements for keeping a car safe. When I submit a car for MOT I always accompany it and watch the test. I always appreciate another skilled pair of eyes on  a car which I am going subsequently sell and therefore take responsibility for. I would far rather correct any faults before sale than have comebacks which are bad for the customer and bad for me and my business. What I don't need are ill-informed and wrong comments indelibly attached to good cars record. I do not object to comments on potential roadworthy issues  although as the MOT test points out it is only a snap shot of the cars condition at the time of the test. Comments such as "brake pads getting to the end of their life" etc. could be useful to many owners. However, if an MOT tester is going to take it upon himself to comment on the general condition of the car where is it all going to end? Are we to regard the MOT as a pre sale check and valuation service ? Will the tester issue an advisory if he doesn't like the colour? No please stick to the items which are covered by the legislation of the test for which there are rules and guidelines. Surely a tester should use his allocated 45 mins in testing the safety of the car not for looking for other comments to make. I have seen many tests where the tester has spent 25 mins looking round the car and doing brake and emission tests and then filled in the rest of the 45 mins required time sitting in front of his computer screen and drinking coffee until he is allowed to log off and then he comes up with advisories as well ! There are bad car dealers and there are bad MOT testers and the rest of us must all be allowed to air our views and experiences so we can learn form each other without prejudice.

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 04:40 pm
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drivewasher
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It amazes me that reputable car dealers and repairers one of each who presented cars for test that failed gas test's. Both occasions we told them that before we book retest on we will gladly gas test it so as not to "waste" the test if your'e with me.
However both cars failed (no different) we let them use our lift etc to change sensors and genrally poke about in car then another not booked on gas test both failed. So they then want me to bring another car alongside and use it's pass results. Apparently the other local vts they use regulary do this.
My son who is the AE (also six foot two brick toilet) asked them kindly to leave and take the car with them, and we don't need this hassle from a trade priced MoT that genrally we've fitted in when we are busy with proper work.
Both cars are now MoT'd and running around locally.
And one of them was a NT with a prestige car main dealer. During our run in I reminded him that a VE can walk in any time while this is going on and it is FRAUD. He told me that with a main dealer the VE has to enter through reception and the NT's get the nod before he gets to the bay.

Any comments

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 11:28 am
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kit1958
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Here is a link to the testing guide, read & enjoy !!
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 10:54 am
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bimmer
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Mana: 
there is a great lack of understanding amongst traders and public alike what it takes to become a tester and all the strict rules we have to abide by to keep to a standard that allows us to keep testing for VOSA. maybe they should take the time to read THE TESTERS GUIDE and learn that we are well trained, skilled, professional people, not someone dragged of the street stuck in an MOT bay and told to get on with it.

you are now invited to share your experiance and background with us if you wish. :)



Last edited on Sun Apr 8th, 2012 11:08 am by bimmer

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 10:52 am
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bimmer
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Last edited on Sun Apr 8th, 2012 10:55 am by bimmer

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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2012 10:37 am
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Stealth
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wchris wrote:
You are making comments about me based on no knowledge of my experience or background whatsoever.

No doubt there are a good number of members of the Forum - qualified & experienced technicians & testers, who might say the same of yourself wchris ;)

By the way. How much experience of the motor trade do you need to become an MOT tester ? Is it as much as four years ?


Four years minimum - plus a formal quailification - or alternatively through VOSA's entrance exam - I'm sure some of the members will say how comprehensive the exam is ;)

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